8
  • Are questions about Mirandês on-topic in our site?

Mirandês is a language spoken in Northeastern Portugal.
It is the second official language of the Portuguese Republic.

One example question, could be:

Em mirandês, o que significa ganar, na frase "l lhobo ne l ganau"?

Na música Coquelhada Marralheira, dos Galandum Galundaina, fala-se:

(...)
al tuoro dua trobisqueira
l cerron de cabeceira
i ls perros, au, au
i l lhobo ne l ganau

Inicialmente pensava que era "e o lobo não vem não", mas agora acho que esse não é o significado da frase.
Que significa então "ganau"?

6

I would always wish for our community to be inclusive where possible. But I honestly don’t know that Mirandês is a good match for us. We could always try and see how it works out. It could be an experiment, and we could always change our minds later.

I would argue, as Jacinto has suggested, that Galician has a better claim here than Mirandese does. That’s because Mirandese is a “variety” of the Astur-Leonese group rather than of the Galego-Portuguese group. I’m sorry that the second of the three previous links is to a Castilian version of that page not to a Portuguese version, but that’s because the Portuguese version of that particular page is so bare. Here in Castilian is the start of its description, which I hope you may be able to translate ok in your heads:

El idioma asturleonés es una lengua romance conocida por diversos glotónimos como asturiano, leonés o mirandés (tradicionalmente cada zona o región ha utilizado un localismo para referirse a esta lengua, de esta forma podemos encontrar diferentes denominaciones como cabreirés, senabrés, pixueto, etc.).

Filogenéticamente el asturleonés forma parte del grupo iberrorromance occidental, y surge de la peculiar evolución que sufrió el latín en el reino de Asturias (posteriormente llamado reino de León). El grupo asturleonés está subdividido en tres variedades lingüísticas (occidental, central y oriental) que trazan verticalmente una división de norte a sur desde Asturias hasta el norte de Portugal, formando así el dominio lingüístico asturleonés. El montañés y el extremeño son variedades lingüísticas de transición con el dominio castellano.

So it seems that Mirandese really isn’t part of the Galego-Português group, although it looks like it has more borrowings from Galego-Portuguese than other Astur-Leonese varieties do. But this, I would bet, is from geographic proximity, not from shared phylogeny.

Then again, not even Asturian finds a home at the Spanish SE site, and the other less-spoken Iberian languages even less so, so there are many languages with no home. Perhaps that is not our problem; perhaps we could be lenient.

One problem is that I don’t know that we have any resident native speakers or otherwise experts in Mirandês. That said, I believe our user guifa has some Asturian, and more recently than me, but that would be more apt to provide clues than certainty.

Here are links to different Wikipedia pages about the Mirandese language in a surprisingly wide variety of different Iberian languages, although not with equal treatment. I place them here for reference because they are not all linked to from each other.

  • In Mirandese itself, where it is called in the long form, lhéngua mirandesa.

    La lhéngua mirandesa ye falada an todas las poboaçones de l cunceilho de Miranda de l Douro, cun eicepçon de dues (Atanor i Teixeira), i an trés aldés de l cunceilho de Bumioso (Bilar Seco, Angueira i Caçarelhos), ne l çtrito de Bergáncia. Tamien ye falada en Lhion Çamora i Asturies, La ária acupada pula region aonde se fala l mirandés en Pertual ten alredoro de 500 km² de superfice i queda na frunteira cula porbíncia lhionesa de Çamora. L mirandés ye tamien falado por muitos mirandeses qu'eimigrórun pa las percipales cidades de l paíç ó qu'eimigrórun pa l strangeiro.

    For the record, that’s pretty recognizable to me as a somewhat oddly spelled variety of Asturian. See that entry just below.

  • In Castilian as lengua mirandesa, which presents an even more extensive treatment of the topic than the previous link did.

    El mirandés es el término glotónimo utilizado para referirse a la lengua tradicional hablada en Miranda do Douro (Portugal), perteneciente al subgrupo asturleonés, que incluye también a las hablas tradicionales (leonés y asturiano) de León, Zamora y Asturias en España.

    El mirandés goza de reconocimiento oficial en toda la provincia portuguesa de Trás-os-Montes e Alto Douro en virtud de la Ley n.º 7/99, de 29 de enero de 1999 de la República Portuguesa ("Reconocimiento oficial de derechos lingüísticos de la comunidad mirandesa"). Es hablado por alrededor de 15.000 personas en los ayuntamientos de Miranda do Douro y Vimioso, en la zona de Trás-os-Montes, en el nordeste de Portugal. Asociaciones internacionales como el SIL International le han otorgado un código propio, y otras como la Unesco lo encuadran dentro de la lengua leonesa.

  • In Portuguese as língua mirandesa.

    A língua mirandesa é um idioma pertencente ao grupo asturo-leonês (ocidental), com estatuto de segunda língua oficial em Portugal, reconhecida oficialmente em 1999 e assim protegida. É falada por mais de 7 000 pessoas e por menos de 10 000, no concelho de Miranda do Douro e nas freguesias de Angueira, Vilar Seco e Caçarelhos, no concelho de Vimioso, num espaço de 484 km², estendendo-se a sua influência por outras freguesias dos concelhos de Vimioso, Mogadouro, Macedo de Cavaleiros e Bragança.

    O mirandês tem três subdialetos (central ou normal, setentrional ou raiano, meridional ou sendinês); os seus falantes são em maior parte bilingues, trilingues ou até mesmo quadrilingues falando muitos deles o mirandês, o português e o castelhano, e até por vezes o galego.

  • In Galician as lingua mirandesa.

    O mirandés ten unha fonoloxía, morfoloxía e sintaxe distinta, e foi diferenciada polo menos dende a formación do Portugal (século XII). Ten as súas raíces do latín falado no norte da Península Ibérica. É un descendente da antiga lingua leonesa do norte da Iberia, o derradeiro remanente da antiga lingua do Reino de León, e atópase fortemente ligado á lingua leonesa moderna e á lingua asturiana. Porén, estas amálgamas do territorio español non afectaron o mirandés, o cal preserva distintas diferenzas lingüísticas tanto do portugués como do castelán. Tamén mantén unha forte ligazón co léxico dalgúns dialectos rexionais portugueses.

    Yes, the orthography is more like Castilian with perhaps a bit of Catalan tossed in with all the x’s, but the Galician language itself is far more like Portuguese than I judge Mirandese to be.

  • In Asturian as lhéngua mirandesa.

    El mirandés (mirandés o lhéngua mirandesa en mirandés), ye'l glotónimu usáu na Tierra de Miranda pa referise al asturianu, asina como tamién a los subdialectos del asturllionés falaos en Portugal.

    El mirandés gocia de reconocimientu oficial nel conceyu de Miranda d l Douro, na provincia de Trás-os-Montes e Alto Douro, en virtú de la Llei n.u 7/99, de 29 de xineru de 1999 de la República Portuguesa ("Reconocimientu oficial de derechos llingüísticos de la comunidá mirandesa"). Ye falao por alredor de 5.000 persones nel distritu de Bergancia, na provincia de Trás-os-Montes, nel nordeste de Portugal. Asociaciones internacionales como'l SIL International otorgáron-y un códigu propiu, y otres como la Unesco encuádrenlu dientro de la llingua llionesa.

  • In Extremaduran (Extremeñu) as luengua mirandesa.

    El mirandés es la segundera luenga reconocia oficialmenti en Purtugal (descrusivaenti en Miranda do Douro dendi 1999). Luengüísticamenti pretenci al sugrupu asturlionés i es palrau pol unas 15.000 presonas enos concehus de Miranda do Douro i Vimioso, ena zona de Trás-os-Montes, nel nordesti de Purtugal. Asociacionis entrinacionalis cumu SIL l'án otolgau el su própiu coigu, i otras cumu la UNESCO lo encuairan endrentu la luenga lionesa.

  • In Aragonese as lingua mirandesa.

    O mirandés ye una parla que fa parte de l'astur-leyonés y que se charra en o noreste de Portugal. Lo charran 15.000 presonas en lugars d'o concello de Miranda de l Douro (Miranda do Douro en portugués, Miranda de l Douro en mirandés) y d'o concello de Bumioso (Vimioso en portugués, Bumioso en mirandés) en un aria de 482 km², on ye cooficial chunto con o portugués.

  • In Catalan as lengua mirandesa or more normally just mirandès.

    El mirandès o mirandés (lhéngua mirandesa) és un dialecte astur parlat per unes 15.000 persones (10.000 d'habituals i la resta emigrants) a la comarca de Miranda do Douro (tots els pobles llevat d'Atenor) i de Vimioso (només als pobles de Vilar Seco i Angueira), a la regió de Tras os Montes de Portugal, sobre una superfície d'uns 450 quilòmetres quadrats.

Go ahead, try reading through all those as I just did: mine shouldn’t be the only mind lost in Ibero-babbling tonight :)

As far as I can tell, the Asturo-leonês group comprises three extremely closely related languages, which get called different things depending on which region they’re being spoken in:

  1. Asturianu when spoken in the Spanish principality of Asturias.
  2. Leonês when spoken in the Spanish provinces of Leon and Zamorra.
  3. Mirandês when spoken in Miranda do Douro (and environs) in Portugal. By "and environs", I meant the additional areas and dialect-names mentioned in the linked Castilian page:

    El paisaje lingüístico del dominio astur-leonés se ve ampliado en Portugal por tres dialectos: mirandés (incluyendo el sub-dialecto sendinés), riodonorés y guaramilés.

Mirandés is a term familiar to me, but sendinés, riodonorés, and guaramilés were not.

This image from Wikipedia shows the distribution from here on the Italian page, which interestingly observes that:

Un'altra differenza è costituita dal fatto che, mentre il mirandese è rimasto molto conservativo, l'asturiano si è evoluto; in passato queste due lingue erano indubbiamente una lingua sola. Le differenze fra mirandese e lingua leonese sono, però, molto meno significative che con l'asturiano. Mirandese e leonese sono lingue, all'interno del proprio dominio linguistico, molto più vicine.

(suggesting in Italian that Mirandese is more conservative than Asturian, which itself has evolved, and that Mirandese is much closer to Leonese than it is to Asturian.)

IT page

The Asturian language is closer to Castilian than it is to Galician (and thus to Portuguese). Asturian has quite a few Galego-Portuguese traits not found in Castilian, but it is still closer to Castilian than it is to Portuguese along that dialect-continuum. However, from reading the various articles it looks like Mirandese has picked up more Galego-Portuguese traits than the other Astur-Leonese dialects have.

  • 1
    "Riodonorés" is new to me, as well. But Rio-de-Onor is a village with a curious history. They are a communitarian village". And waaay back in the past, they were not Portuguese and not Galician or Leonese, they were sort of a "free-city" enclave, with rights of passage in the surrounding areas. – ANeves Mar 1 '17 at 12:16
  • I'm not surprised that Mirandese should have picked up more Galego-Portuguese traits than others Astur-Leonese dialects have. I would expect too that Galician has picked up more Castilian traits than Portuguese has. In addition to the linguistic affiliation, I think you raise an important point, we might not have anyone able to answer questions about Mirandese. But I'm not against though. – Jacinto Mar 1 '17 at 19:51
  • 2
    Excellent answer tchrist. – Jorge B. Mar 3 '17 at 11:28
  • Indeed, Asturian orthography is close to Castilian — that was a bit intentional when they designed it to try to make it easier to learn. There's also strong metaphony in some dialects (gatu /getu/, perru /piru/ but gatos /gatos/, perros /peros/) that they opted not to represent in writing, and stem changes are written even though in the west of Asturias you have dueɾme /doɾmi/ but its grammar feels to me quite a bit different from both Castilian and Portuguese. – guifa Mar 4 '17 at 14:36
  • 1
    But while I'd feel comfortable answering basic questions on Mirandese as I have a dozen and a half books in it (though I've only read about half a dozen of them thus far), and feel mostly comfortable with its conjugations, etc, I wouldn't feel comfortable answering anything too terribly deep about it. But also, this post shows the need — that we've discussed on Spanish.SE — to launch a Romance Languages SE that could handle the minority languages better in addition to some cross-language questions that could also be on topic on Linguistics.SE but maybe fit better there. – guifa Mar 4 '17 at 14:40
2

I have taken a look at their Wikipedia and it is distinct enough to warrant their claim at being another language. That being said, I don't oppose it, there is a strong correlation between both languages and it certainly seems a lot closer to most contemporary Portuguese dialects than, say, medieval Portuguese (which would be definitely on-topic).

Plus, questions on this topic wouldn't be frequent enough to divert the focus on Portuguese. I don't see it detracting from our core mission here.

But, then, would the Galician language also be on-topic? There are a couple tags, which led me to believe someone tried to ask a question about it before. If we accept Mirandese questions here, then we should accept Galician questions, as well.

  • 1
    In any case, questions of type "how can I say X in Portuguese" are on-topic, for any language: English, Mirandês, Gallego, Bantu, etc. The asker must explain the concept from the other language, and the answers would provide ways to say it in Portuguese. I am wondering not about "how to say in Portuguese this concept that I know", but about questions on the Mirandês language. Unfortunately I suspect that the answer to my question is a confident "no". :( – ANeves Feb 28 '17 at 19:46
  • 3
    I thought about Galego often. Yes, one can argue Galego has a better claim to be on topic here than Mirandês. Mirandês is closer to Castillian than to Portuguese – Jacinto Feb 28 '17 at 20:20
  • But Ramon, if that song is representative I understand medieval Portuguese better. – Jacinto Feb 28 '17 at 20:24
  • 1
    @Jacinto I agree about the song, but take a quick look at their Wikipedia, it is fairly easy to read. That being said, I don't think Galician would be a bad match here. Galiza is a CPLP member, has signed the AO90, and has even prepared their very own Léxico da Galiza. We have enough space for both of them, I think. – Ramon Melo Mar 1 '17 at 2:33
  • @ANeves I agree. If the question were, "Como é que posso dizer a palavra mirandesa ganau em português, o qual significa um conjunto de animais como as vacas" it would be on topic with the answer of gano, but as stated in the example question, it wouldn't be because it's asking for the word in English and doesn't explain what the word means (so it'd be off-topic on English.SE as well). – guifa Mar 4 '17 at 16:53
2

The following represents my point of view about the subject:

The fact that Mirandese is an official language in Portugal, does not seem to be good enough a reason to make us accept questions about it here. I would like to present the following arguments:

  • As far as I know, there aren't any speakers of Mirandese asking us to include their language here. They might want to have a site of their own, who knows?
  • Other languages, such as Galician, sound much more like Portuguese and are much easier to understand for a speaker of pt-BR (and maybe pt-PT) than Mirandese. Take a look at the paragraphs below and see it for yourselves.

IN MIRANDESE - Anque Pertual ser un paíç zambolbido, inda eisiste populaçon sin acesso la auga ancanhada i eiletricidade, ambora an númaro bastante reduzido. L saneamiento básico inda nun abrange to l território, sendo la region de l Alanteijo i de Lisboua i Bal de l Teijo adonde eisiste un maior númaro de populaçon cun acesso.

IN GALICIAN - As temperaturas medias anuais nas áreas urbanas do territorio continental varían dende os 18 °C en Faro, capital do Algarve, até os 12,5 °C em Bragança, preto da fronteira galega, e os 10 °C na Guarda, a cidade máis alta e fría do país. No tocante ás precipitacións, varían dos menos de 300 mm na ribeira de Massueime, afluente do Côa, que á súa vez é afluente do Douro, e dos 450 mm de Faro, aos 1.700 mm da Guarda e aos mais de 3.000 mm da Serra do Xurés, preto da Baixa Limia. A zona considerada máis fría do país é a Serra da Estrela.

  • If questions about Mirandese become on topic, there would be no reason to reject questions about Galician, Talian, or other Brazilian dialects.

  • Most Brazilians would feel insecure to answer any question about Mirandese. It's another language and just as difficult for Brazilians as Leonese or Castilian Spanish.

  • Last, but not least, I don't see any reason why it should be accepted here. Those who are in favor should present their arguments, and the lack of a good reason should be enough to make all of us realize it simply does not fit here.

  • "other Brazilian dialects" Aren't most of them accepted here? Or do you mean "other languages spoken in Brazil"? – Ramon Melo Mar 6 '17 at 22:04
  • That's a keen illustration. I read over the Mirandese picking through it slowly for its many somewhat off to unfamiliar ways of writing and sometimes vocabulary, but then I come to the Galician and the sudden smooth sailing is almost like coming home again. Not quite, but comparatively speaking, in that I no longer need to work at anything or go slowly. – tchrist Mar 11 '17 at 4:43
  • @RamonMelo When I say "other Brazilian dialects" I don't mean dialects of the Portuguese language. I mean dialects such as "Hunsriqueano", "Pomerano", "Austro-Bavarian", "Talian", "Nheengatu", "Baniwa", etc. – Centaurus Oct 16 '18 at 17:18

You must log in to answer this question.

Not the answer you're looking for? Browse other questions tagged .